Squats questions

[flexagon]

So, yesterday I did almost exactly the squat workout recommended by bluechromis :

12 reps @ 65 lb
10 reps @ 75
8 reps @ 85
6 reps @ 95
12 reps @ 75 <-- (pssst--I only did 10 of these, that was the almost).
12 reps of another more specific quad excercise (slow quad extensions at 50 lb.)

, and I did them first thing. God, there's nothing to suck the joy out of the first half of a workout like that. :b I seriously might have to start splitting into Squat/Quads Day and Everything Else Day. Anyway, I need some advice because now my lower back is way more sore than I like. It happened last week too, and lasted until Weds or so... it feels like normal muscular stiffness rather than something being messed up in a bad way, but it's pretty uncomfortable. Plus, there is some chance it is something bad--am I perhaps sticking my butt out too much instead of keeping my pelvis tucked when I'm squatting down (I was trying not to, but...)? And if I hypothetically did that, would it stress my lower back in a bad way and cause trouble? Some sites actually say to keep your lower back arched, but my trainer said to keep it straight, and that sounds better to me intuitively.

Also, if this is just muscular stiffness, but then the question is whether squats themselves, once a week, are going to strengthen the offending bits or whether I should be doing some other lower-back exercises on Thursdays to help get them up to speed. Any advice/experience would be appreciated. :)

Comments

... sorry, no advice here.

[jg26.livejournal.com]

everything you post about here is exactly why i've been avoiding squats.

Re: ... sorry, no advice here.

[flexagon]

Eh, well, I was never expecting to figure them out very quickly. I'm a slowpoke when it comes to physical learning.

If it's exactly the same set of questions you had, you could parrot whatever blue told you and save her the trouble of replying to this... ;)

Re: ... sorry, no advice here.

[jg26.livejournal.com]

I've only attempted squats twice (and those were w/o any weight). ...and blue was right there, correcting my form w/ every squat (no, not every set of squats, every individual squat I was doing something new and differently wrong). So, like I said in one previous post... squats have intimidated the hell out of me, and I'm gonna start on a sled, when I decide to do legs at all.

Re: ... sorry, no advice here.

[bluechromis.livejournal.com]

Darling, it wasn't that you did something "new and differently wrong" on every rep, it was that I fixed one thing at a time - so it just sounded like there was something new wrong. You did get them right by the end of the first set.

Re: ... sorry, no advice here.

[jg26.livejournal.com]

yeah, I think the key is to get the muscle memory to make the form feel natural.. because, the form feels very strange to the beginner.

[bluechromis.livejournal.com]

Well, caveat emptor, I'm not a trainer.

However - a) You should not arch your back, but you should be sticking your butt out while keeping your back straight. It will feel like you are arching it. Try doing them with a baby bar (I'm thinking those little 12 lbs ones) and looking at yourself sideways in a mirror to see what it looks like and feels like. The goal is to have your weight balanced directly over your feet, perhaps a little towards your heels, in order to ensure your knees aren't going over your toes. Remember that you want the bottom of your hamstrings to be parallel to the ground when you are at the bottom.

b) Your back likely hasn't been worked like this. If it feels like muscle soreness (and I guess you're enough of a gym rat to tell the difference), I would just stick with the squats, or even add in straight leg dead lifts for hammy work, as that works lower back too. If you wanted to add in an extra day of lower back work since you only lift LB one day/week, it's probably fine. Up to you, depending on how you feel, but rest assured that the squats will help get your lower back up to speed eventually.

Re: ... sorry, no advice here.

[flexagon]

Oh, definitely. It's taken me this long (5 or 6 workouts?) just to really feel confident about squatting down and having my weight be in the right place. It's a complicated motion. Which I guess is why I'm not particularly discouraged yet. :)

Thankies :)

[flexagon]

Sounds like I'm more or less fine then. Yeah, I do the sideways scoping-myself-out all the time... I do have trouble holding onto how my pelvis feels when it looks right though. Practice is needed.

The motion to do SLDLs died in subcommittee yesterday since I had one hamstring pretty thrashed from wheel kicks on Saturday. :( I do "usually" do them though. This feels like a different part of the lower back, like just the muscles closest to the spine (they probably hurt more simply because the outer ones are more conditioned from TKD and SLDLs in the first place). You're quite right that this dratted exercise is different from anything else.

I'll probably stay at the current weights for 2-3 weeks to let my back catch up a bit before increasing again.

[bluechromis.livejournal.com]

God, there's nothing to suck the joy out of the first half of a workout like that. :b I seriously might have to start splitting into Squat/Quads Day and Everything Else Day.

I forget, are you still doing a whole body workout on one day? Or is it split into upper and lower?

Re: Thankies :)

[hiddenbear.livejournal.com]

I agree with Blue on her second point (don't know enough to know whether her first point is right or not. :-) ). My lower back hurts often, and I know that it is because it is weak.

[flexagon]

Whole body on Sundays, upper body on Thursdays. It's been very very hard for me to come up with anything more optimized, since it's so driven by the class schedules at TKD.

Sunday: Whole body weights
Monday: ---
Tues: TKD normal class
Weds: TKD normal class
Thurs: Upper body weights
Friday: TKD forms
Saturday: TKD normal class or sparring (not both, idiot, NOT BOTH)

Now, I've been wanting to shake things up a little so I can go to the advanced TKD class on Thurs night, which I could do by moving upper body weights to Wednesdays. That still leaves me with a weekend problem though. The best thing really might be to to upper body weights before TKD on Saturdays, leaving legs for Sundays... which sucks the joy out of Sundays, but I think it'd work.

I bet that was a much longer answer than you wanted, but there you go. :)

[bluechromis.livejournal.com]

That's not too long, that explains perfectly.

It's as we said in the soccer discussion, it's so hard to work proper gym time in safely around other extra-curricular athletic activities. No wonder you're so wiped - doing squats at the beginning of a whole body workout! I don't think I could handle that. Ideally you'd be able to focus on a smaller subset so that that smaller subset that you're working gets a higher quality workout. But this is not an ideal world.

If I were you, I'd definitely split UB and LB between Sat and Sun, but I wouldn't even try a whole body weight workout in one day in the first place, I'm too much of a wuss. You might even grow to like LB more after rearranging, because you'd get better results in your legs. I remember you saying you didn't use to lift legs at all, so give the poor things some attention and time ;-)

Anyway, enough advice because I feel a bit like an imposter here.

[flexagon]

Because you whaaaaaa...? Good heavens, girl, this post was practically an email just to you (and perhaps webfaery as a cc). I was asking you for advice. :)

I wish this were an ideal world schedule-wise. And that I were figuring this out faster. But, pretty much with anything physical I need a lot of time. I've been doing my legs for a year now--long enough to see some results but not enough to really consider myself to have figured it out. After skating (you're still crappy after a year), TKD (a year will get you stuck at green belt, w00t) and even upper-body lifting (I felt good but was not lifting today's kind of weight), well, that's no surprise to me.

I'll try switching up my schedule--the only question is how well Saturday morning upper body is going to go over in combination with TKD. I think it could work as long as there's a break between. I'll let y'all know. :)

my $0.02

[webfaery.livejournal.com]

The advice blue gave you was spot on. As long as your back soreness isn't actually pain then you're probably ok. I don't know your body, tho' so I can't be certain. Listen to your body and trust what it tells you. You do need that butt pushing towards the back wall. Be careful about doing too much weight. Especially at the start. Time under tension is what makes the muscle grow. In too many cases heavy weight is an ego thing at the expense of form. (I don't think this is the case with you - I know how hard you work and that you do pay attention to your body).
I would never advise doing upper and lower body in the same workout - not even on the same day, but sometimes life happens and same day is necessary. In that case I would say make sure you have several hours between eg: do upper early in the morning and lower in the evening. That's probably not terribly convenient either. You run the risk of systemic exhaustion when you do everything together - 'specially now that you are doing squats. You're really working those big leg muscles hard and there's a lot of cooperation and support happening from lots of other muscles in your body.
In the end, tho', you have to do what works for you. Have you read what Krista (http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html) has to say about modifications women can make to squats? Click on 'women stuff' then 'feminine problems'. Follow her other links and read what else she has to say about squatting. You may have done this already.
I know I'm rambling a bit but I have a couple of other things I've been wanting to say to you.
I love this photo of your back. It looks fabulous!
You asked for thoughts on plateaus a while back. I didn't have time to comment back then. I'll copy an excerpt from Experts' Weight Loss Guide: For Doctors, Health Professionals...and All Those Serious about Their Health (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1865085774/qid=1084235344/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-7480518-5380908?v=glance&s=books).
"Physiological adjustments to changes in energy balance...mean that plateaus in the weight loss process are natural and to be expected." "Consolidation of weight loss by maintaining a plateau after 3-6 months of losses should be a key focus of any weight-loss program. This allows the body to adjust to a new settling point based on a new level of energy balance, and hence reduces the risk of reactive weight regain."
I think that you can substitute 'strength gains' for 'weight loss' in the above statement. The plateau gives your metabolism time to adapt to the change of energy balance due to fat loss or muscle gain (or both). Any weight loss program requires maintenance for at least 12 months before it can be considered successful. A plateau encourages maintenance. "...in light of the fact that the normal progression in modern populations is an increase in weight, 'not gaining is winning'."

Re: my $0.02

[bluechromis.livejournal.com]

That's probably not terribly convenient either. You run the risk of systemic exhaustion when you do everything together - 'specially now that you are doing squats. You're really working those big leg muscles hard and there's a lot of cooperation and support happening from lots of other muscles in your body.

Yeah, there is no way in the world I could do them both together. Even contemplating it makes me dizzy.

That was a really interesting bit about plateaus. Mentally, in the past, I have had a really hard time with plateaus. This year, my main fitness/body goal is consistency. Finding the right balance of pushing myself as hard as I can without burning myself out. And sometimes that will probably mean just holding steady or even pulling back sometimes. This is much more of a mental growth process than a physical one. So thanks for posting that link :)

Oh, and yes, isn't that back photo nifty! She's a studette.

Re: my $0.02

[flexagon]

Thanks for your comment! Rambling's okay. :) Systemic exhaustion... possible. I was monitoring myself pretty carefully and taking a day off on Mondays, and my body really did seem to be all right with the full-body thing right up until now. I don't know why it would be okay. Maybe once a week just wasn't enough to grind it down. A lot of my other days (TKD forms, for example) are easy.

I do want to get my legs stronger, because I know it's helping a lot with TKD injury prevention, so I have to increase weight sometime-- but I did got more sore this week than I really associate with normal, healthy growth in strength. So I intend to hold at the same weight and move other exercises off to a different day (oh, and take my glutamine right away instead of forgetting for 12 hours). When it feels better, and not before, I'll think again of increasing. No worries about ego, see, at least not on the legs. My back now... and what did you do, you just fed the ego. ;) Thanks on the picture, anyway. Thanks for the stumptuous link too--I'd read it before, but not for quite a while. Too long, probably. I will try the wider stance with no weight and see how it feels.