So, racism is more acceptable than marijuana use. Lovely.

[flexagon]

Well, this is annoying as hell. Especially coming from an agency that was happy to run an ad for The Black Pages of New England, which offended me enough to write to them a couple of years ago (they didn't explain that decision very well either... I guess blatant racism is "reputable behavior" according to them). I am not one to slam on the MBTA often, as I think they generally do a heroic job, but the people in charge of their advertising department seem more bigoted than I can think comfortably about. Bleh!

In other news, I am becoming glumly convinced that Orson Scott Card is going to kill Alvin in The Crystal City (next and last of the Alvin Maker books, as I'm now halfway through book 5). Had I forgotten just how Mormon the guy is? Have I forgotten what he did to Ender? But it's not like I'll be able to stop reading while I'm ahead, nooooooo. And, there, now those of you who've read the series can go crazy trying not to tell me what happens. :)

Comments

[bluechromis.livejournal.com]

Why do you object to the Black Pages?

It's unbelievable how bad that spokesperson is!

[flexagon]

Well, it exists only to discriminate between businesses based on their owners' race... does that not seem racist to you?

[bluechromis.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's racism in the sense that the decision for inclusion in the book is based on race, but I don't think all "racism" is bad, despite the connotations. If you're talking about a chance to make an individual decision to selectively support a specific group that can probably use the help, I say go for it. I think it's one of the more positive things the black community is doing for itself - promoting entrepreneurship. It's just a list.

[flexagon]

Hmmm. Why not have a phone book that lists the owner's race next to all business entries, then? That would allow people to make those individual choices based on the idea of supporting any race, not just the black race.

[bluechromis.livejournal.com]

You could, if anyone cared enough to produce and market that. *Shrug*

Again, it's just a listing. You don't have to buy the book or use it, it's just being advertised. There are all sorts of listings that are targeted to various groups, including gender ones, race ones, profession ones, regional ones...

[bluechromis.livejournal.com]

ps. I'm not intending to be annoying, I was genuinely interested as to why. We can agree to disagree though. :)

[artana.livejournal.com]

I actually get Flexy's viewpoint on this one.

It used to be that white males were considered racist towards others. But, now the racism seems to go the other way. It is ok for one race to create a gender only book but not for others?

Imagine what would happen is a book of just white businesses came out? It would be torn to shreds by the same community that reserves a right to publish its own book.

social darwinism?

[jg26.livejournal.com]

I think the whole issue comes down to what you mean by equality. Do you want all things to begin equal or to end equal? If things start equal (ie. having no race-specific directories), then, in the end, whites will have an advantage because they already dominate most markets. However, if you give special concessions to the non-dominant races, the end result would have a more equal outcome.

Those who are pure darwinists might favor the former, those who want us to have a society where all things end up truly equal will former the latter.

Either it's ok to make racially based decisions or it's not

[flexagon]

However, if you give special concessions to the non-dominant races, the end result would have a more equal outcome.

I doubt it, to be honest. Nothing in my knowledge of the human race tells me that we are wise enough. I fear that once we get into the habit of saying that it's okay to discriminate in one's decisions based on race, it will be easy to forget that the end goal was to be able to treat people equally regardless of race, and the inequalities and affirmative actions and backlashes and back-backlashes will continue forever. :/

My feeling is that it's a very harmful thing the moment anyone starts getting any special treatment, positive or negative, from others based on their skin color. I don't think skin color should have anything to do with anything! And I think acting as if it doesn't is the only way to make that true. So, no, I don't support the Black Pages or anything else that promotes making business decisions based on race, and I don't support advertising it either. Yes, of course I would like to support entrepreneurs who are struggling up from hard situations, but I don't necessarily associate dark skin with those qualities... and if I did I would try not to.

No worries, those of you I disagree with, we can disagree nicely. But since "yeep, that's racist" didn't seem to explain my views properly, I felt I should try to do a better job. :)

Re: Either it's ok to make racially based decisions or it's not

[bluechromis.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I don't think saying "things should be equal" will make them equal. I always find it a little odd when people scream about discrimination when it doesn't actually adversely affect them. I mean, how is this book hurting you, or anyone?

Either it's ok to make racially based decisions or it's not

Racism isn't that black and white (har), because it doesn't have the same repercussions for everyone. If you're just that passionately against the concept of racism, perhaps that feeling could be more effectively directed at ending racist practices that are actually detrimental to people, rather than worry about efforts that may help businesses overcome plenty of subtle and not-so-subtle racially-related obstacles? They're just fighting back.

I am sure that when the black community is no longer in a subordinant position that, if necessary, the white community will be able to hold our own against their "racism". Every subordinate group goes through a period of circling the wagons while the drag themselves out of the pit they're in, and if they don't do it themselves, who will? This is not a case of anyone suffering while they benefit, this is them giving people the option to specifically help black businesses, in order to hopefully see the black community thrive. It's good for everyone if that happens.

AAAAAAAAAaaaaanywho. TGIF - we've said our pieces! See you tonight, we can dump drinks on each other. :) *hugs*

Re: Either it's ok to make racially based decisions or it's not

[bluechromis.livejournal.com]

Ack, my first paragraph got chopped off:

Basically I just said
Yes, of course I would like to support entrepreneurs who are struggling up from hard situations, but I don't necessarily associate dark skin with those qualities... and if I did I would try not to.

Ignoring the fact that poverty has a strong association (in urban areas at least) with race, doesn't change the fact that it does. Urban black are NOT equal to urban whites in terms of economic and educational opportunity. It's a fact.

I don't think skin color should have anything to do with anything! And I think acting as if it doesn't is the only way to make that true.

Eh? You can't change something by ignoring it. I think you have to recognize that race, for a variety of reasons, IS a factor in the quality of life for many many people, before you can address why that is.

Re: Either it's ok to make racially based decisions or it's not

[flexagon]

I am sure that when the black community is no longer in a subordinant position that, if necessary, the white community will be able to hold our own against their "racism".

Retaliatory racism is racism too. No reason for the quote marks there.

And as for being bothered by something that isn't really hurting me... whatever, dude. You know perfectly well I'm the same way about women-only gyms, and that's theoretically trying to help me. I am disturbed by seeing what I perceive as divisive, unnecessary behavior, that's all.

Can't we all just be friends?

*pretends to sob until you come close, then dumps drink on your head*

Re: Either it's ok to make racially based decisions or it's not

[bluechromis.livejournal.com]

I am disturbed by seeing what I perceive as divisive, unnecessary behavior, that's all.

Actually, I didn't know you're against women's gyms. I would disagree with the "unnecessary" part of that statement. Just because you feel comfortable exercising around guys doesn't mean that other people do (and for some very valid reasons, such as feeling more exposed in workout clothing than they'd choose to be in the outer world). I was much more comfortable at Healthworks than any other gym I've been at...and I wouldn't oppose a men's only gym.

I'd be interested in discussing this more in person, just cuz I respect your thoughts, and we seem to be so different here. Perhaps lunch sometime. Then mud wrasslin.

Re: social darwinism?

[artana.livejournal.com]

I am not a pure darwinist, but I have to agree that inequality of any kind only breeds more inequality. It is great to think that in the end it would make things more equal, but in my experience it doesn't. All it really does is promote different standards to different races, thereby promoting that inequality.