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flexagonIn the name of finishing what I started, I'm gonna finish what I started (I also answered all your comments on Part I). But be at ease... the last parts of the book were far more comforting than the first parts, for the most part. Here we get into things like how family works its way into the question, and also one or two super-inspiring stories of people who people with really big dreams (about whom I might have something to say later, but not so much today, as it turns out).
I actually liked Po's take on the issue of kids. He points out, quite correctly, that most people can adapt to being parents, that nature in fact gives us a very workable amount of time in which to adapt. Also that it doesn't necessarily mess up our careers irredeemably. Fine... but far more interesting is the way he says that having kids doesn't always become the primary meaning in life.
The relationship with your child is so meaningful it can reveal just how meaningless other things in your life are. And people deal with this information in opposite ways. Many people are suddenly relieved of the burden of finding meaningful work. They're perfectly content to punch the clock; family provides meaning now. If they can afford to, they'd rather stay home with the kids. But just as commonly, this meaning audit compels people to hold a higher standard to their life; they can no longer waste half their waking hours on some job that doesn't do it for them. They don't want their child to watch them lead a dispassionate life.
This doesn't make me want to have kids, not in the slightest, but it does make me go hmmmmm. It sounds true to me.![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
artana, any comment, I wonder?
Well, the book goes on. But I don't feel like reviewing it in such detail anymore. What I'm thinking now, and as I commented inwebrat's journal... I want a point beyond which I'm content. I want to be satisfiable. I don't want this thing where my salary's not enough, and then something else isn't enough, and then in the end $100 million plus the presidency wouldn't be enough, you know? I do want some of my drive/ambition back, and--this is important--I think I have a valid reason to feel my career isn't reflecting the real me as well as it could. So it's valid to want to do better--but I want it to have a reason and not just be this stupid "more more more" thing.
The book does have one important message that comes out near the end of business being (only) a tool to be used to further whatever it is that you believe in. That's a good and sobering point. I will get my soul crushed if I choose to go back for an MBA now and end up just working at any old business... on the other hand I could always pick up the tool and not use it unless or until I find something to use it for. Hmm... me, a Sloanie? Maybe after the next job, although I think not yet.
We all share [the] human experience. We are all looking for "rightness." We are all struggling to transcend the way our class has defined us. We are all trying to know ourselves. We are all looking for an environment that nurtures our soul. We are all trying to balance the needs and desires of our families. We are all trying to keep the Big Picture in mind. This unites us, not divides us.
So finding your calling is not "the answer." Callings are vehicles that let our real selves out; callings speed up the process. You can find your calling, or you can find your people, or you can find an environment that nurtures you--they all lead to the same place. Many people get there without ever finding their calling. Head in that direction. Seek, adjust. Seek, learn. We grow into our true selves, our whole selves, overcoming the limits that once trapped us.
Intriguingly enough, I've found my environment (urban) and I've found my people (MIT). It seems, it really seems, that the only thing left that's a bit suboptimal is the job... and hell, even there, it's just the industry. This realization makes me feel about 20 times better. I wish I'd read this, the last chapter, first. Or at least that I hadn't stopped reading when I did, that I'd plowed forward to this.
Now, I'd still rather have a calling than not have a calling. If I do find one, though, I ask just one thing of it... it better be a big one, it better be something that takes a lifetime. I don't want another life dream that I can fully achieve. Whoever could have told the white-trash kid I used to be that aiming at MIT, which seemed impossible from where I stood, would be aiming way too low? But it was, and I would have known it if I'd only looked at how old I'd be when I graduated. Life dream attained, almost 22 years old but not quite, and ugh, what next? Settle in and make money for 5 years and then decide, I said. And that brings us to now, and that's okay... but if I have another burning ambition type thing, let it not be something else that will leave me stranded. I hate that. I'd rather have something to always be aiming at, if I can't make peace with being a sort of drifter--which is still an option too.
current mood: sleepy
current music: I understand about indecision, I don't care about gettin' behind... people livin' in competition, all I want is to have my peace of mind.
I actually liked Po's take on the issue of kids. He points out, quite correctly, that most people can adapt to being parents, that nature in fact gives us a very workable amount of time in which to adapt. Also that it doesn't necessarily mess up our careers irredeemably. Fine... but far more interesting is the way he says that having kids doesn't always become the primary meaning in life.
The relationship with your child is so meaningful it can reveal just how meaningless other things in your life are. And people deal with this information in opposite ways. Many people are suddenly relieved of the burden of finding meaningful work. They're perfectly content to punch the clock; family provides meaning now. If they can afford to, they'd rather stay home with the kids. But just as commonly, this meaning audit compels people to hold a higher standard to their life; they can no longer waste half their waking hours on some job that doesn't do it for them. They don't want their child to watch them lead a dispassionate life.
This doesn't make me want to have kids, not in the slightest, but it does make me go hmmmmm. It sounds true to me.
artana, any comment, I wonder?Well, the book goes on. But I don't feel like reviewing it in such detail anymore. What I'm thinking now, and as I commented in
webrat's journal... I want a point beyond which I'm content. I want to be satisfiable. I don't want this thing where my salary's not enough, and then something else isn't enough, and then in the end $100 million plus the presidency wouldn't be enough, you know? I do want some of my drive/ambition back, and--this is important--I think I have a valid reason to feel my career isn't reflecting the real me as well as it could. So it's valid to want to do better--but I want it to have a reason and not just be this stupid "more more more" thing. The book does have one important message that comes out near the end of business being (only) a tool to be used to further whatever it is that you believe in. That's a good and sobering point. I will get my soul crushed if I choose to go back for an MBA now and end up just working at any old business... on the other hand I could always pick up the tool and not use it unless or until I find something to use it for. Hmm... me, a Sloanie? Maybe after the next job, although I think not yet.
We all share [the] human experience. We are all looking for "rightness." We are all struggling to transcend the way our class has defined us. We are all trying to know ourselves. We are all looking for an environment that nurtures our soul. We are all trying to balance the needs and desires of our families. We are all trying to keep the Big Picture in mind. This unites us, not divides us.
So finding your calling is not "the answer." Callings are vehicles that let our real selves out; callings speed up the process. You can find your calling, or you can find your people, or you can find an environment that nurtures you--they all lead to the same place. Many people get there without ever finding their calling. Head in that direction. Seek, adjust. Seek, learn. We grow into our true selves, our whole selves, overcoming the limits that once trapped us.
Intriguingly enough, I've found my environment (urban) and I've found my people (MIT). It seems, it really seems, that the only thing left that's a bit suboptimal is the job... and hell, even there, it's just the industry. This realization makes me feel about 20 times better. I wish I'd read this, the last chapter, first. Or at least that I hadn't stopped reading when I did, that I'd plowed forward to this.
Now, I'd still rather have a calling than not have a calling. If I do find one, though, I ask just one thing of it... it better be a big one, it better be something that takes a lifetime. I don't want another life dream that I can fully achieve. Whoever could have told the white-trash kid I used to be that aiming at MIT, which seemed impossible from where I stood, would be aiming way too low? But it was, and I would have known it if I'd only looked at how old I'd be when I graduated. Life dream attained, almost 22 years old but not quite, and ugh, what next? Settle in and make money for 5 years and then decide, I said. And that brings us to now, and that's okay... but if I have another burning ambition type thing, let it not be something else that will leave me stranded. I hate that. I'd rather have something to always be aiming at, if I can't make peace with being a sort of drifter--which is still an option too.
current mood: sleepy
current music: I understand about indecision, I don't care about gettin' behind... people livin' in competition, all I want is to have my peace of mind.
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no subject
Date: 2004-05-23 08:30 pm (UTC)That is the reason why I can never go back to my major. I love children, but the time is passed where I could write a thesis even a majoral one and spend hours analyzing data.:/
See, I think you are lucky. I would love to go back to my people and my environment (Same as yours). But, I cannot ever seem to make it back to Boston where the majority of them are. I am slowly finding that it may be a matter of philosophy. I am religion-wise pagan, mostly wicca, but I have not been able to spend time truly discovering it. I am philosophically very different from most people I meet. But, they are around and I will find them.;) Even if the live hundreds of miles away.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-24 07:54 am (UTC)This is the way my parents are & they knew this would be the way they'd feel before having kids. They are extremely loving parents who were willing to sacrifice their 'before children' lives to have this sense of purpose. [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com] & [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com], from what I gather, feel that this sense of purpose could never appeal to them (I know for blue, at least, the fact that the word sacrifice is used to describe parenting is enough to drive her away from it). Though they may not know exactly what that sense of purpose is... they know what it's not... and that's children. If this is the case, the decision NOT to have children is wise & respectable.
I still don't know where I stand on this. Though I do see all the things I'd be giving up for kids... and I would definitely choose the woman I love over any desires to have children, it does make me sad to think I'll never have them. I've always had a vision of a little person looking up at me & calling me "daddy" which is incredibly appealing and can't get it out of my head.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-24 08:21 am (UTC)Oh, actually, the thought of helping a child explore and learn, and teaching it to grow up unafraid... well, that would be the one part I would like (and could conceivably be a bit sad to miss out on--especially the phase where they're acquiring language, as I mentioned after my last visit with Birdie). But, yeah... that comes nowhere close to drowning out my thought that I'd be an awful parent, and belief that my life and body would be
completely ruinedso different from what they are now that I would lose myself. Not to mention the fact that having children does change you, and I don't want to change if I'm not controlling the process--I especially don't want to be hardwired to love anything. That's just freaky beyond anything I could imagine. Mind control. Augh.Ah well... kudos to those of you who ARE strong and giving enough. If I ever decide it would be good to imprint myself on malleable young minds, I guess I can always help out with your kids at a preschool someday. :)
I've always had a vision of a little person looking up at me & calling me "daddy" which is incredibly appealing
Wow, the corresponding image with "mommy" terrifies me! Oddly enough, it works better for me with "daddy"... or of course "auntie", which is what Birdie theoretically calls me.
<cynicism>Daddy doesn't have to push the things out of his crotch, of course. Yeah, no wonder all the guys I've ever been with (until HLM) have wanted them.</cynicism>
no subject
Date: 2004-05-24 08:23 am (UTC)sorry to be harping on this issue...
Date: 2004-05-24 08:25 am (UTC)I want a point beyond which I'm content. I want to be satisfiable. I don't want this thing where my salary's not enough, and then something else isn't enough, and then in the end $100 million plus the presidency wouldn't be enough, you know? I do want some of my drive/ambition back...
It strikes me that ambition can almost be defined as "a lack of contentment in your current state". Look back over the last 1/2 year's posts and you'll see this theme recurring... not only as far as careers are concerned... but also exercise. I know that more ambitious people can look at a content person (or perhaps a content person can look at him/herself), and see someone who lacks ambition, or has set low standards for themself. Maybe this is true, I don't know. On the other hand the ambitious person can be overly hard on themselves... either be setting unattainable goals, or by achieving one goal and immediately raising the bar. They don't allow themselves the contentment of a job well done, and to be satisfied w/ that.
I think its just 2, mutually exclusive, mindsets... I think whichever one you lean towards... you should try the other to see what it has to offer. They are both valid. They both have their up & down sides. You may get a better understanding for those around you if you experience both.
Re: sorry to be harping on this issue...
Date: 2004-05-24 10:14 am (UTC)Just to play devil's advocate, though, there are other ways to be content. It's absolutely not 2 mutually exclusive things, it's not just "am I content where I am now, or am I not". There's plenty of calculus people can get into. As an example, my financial situation: since college I've been content with wildly varying amounts of money in the bank, as long as my net worth was on a constant upward slope. I needed to feel I was slowly improving, and wasn't much worried about the time scale as long as I felt the direction was right. Similarly, some people value the flexibility of changing their job a lot more than they enjoy any one job--change is what makes them happy.
You may get a better understanding for those around you if you experience both.
Erk? Am I suddenly an ambition-blinded drone with no empathy and very little life experience? Christ... I might as well go back to posting about sex and letting everyone think I'm a nympho. :b
Re: sorry to be harping on this issue...
Date: 2004-05-24 10:40 am (UTC)sorry, that was not a "you" so much as a "one"... a general broadcast to the world (or LJ community) at large. Just my own reaction to my new motivations to be more ambitious. In fact, I see you as someone who has both at different times and is trying to find when one is appropriate or not.... where to draw then redraw your line.
It's absolutely not 2 mutually exclusive things, it's not just "am I content where I am now, or am I not".
No, it is not black and white. All I'm saying is that contentment is black, ambition is white (no value judgment in the colors) and every person figures out what shade of grey they want to be at any particular time. The black and the white ARE opposite ends of the same spectrum. Its good to see what each end has to offer, so that you can make more informed choices about your lot in life, and so that you can understand others.
... Perhaps the reason that people think I'm being judgmental in this (besides the fact that I'm wording everything poorly), is that this may be a completely obvious observation that you all may have made a long time ago, and are saying "duh, why is he bringing this up... if not to judge me?". I've just never made that connection before and am having fun getting my thoughts out on 'paper' is all. I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend.
Re: sorry to be harping on this issue...
Date: 2004-05-24 10:54 am (UTC)Er, well, hmmm... you got me, I did kind of think that. No fair, now I can't stay mad. :b
Cyclical importances attached to things are characteristic of most lives, I think. There are soooo many phases in my journal--some from things like wedding planning and condo buying that are over, some about things like TKD and sex that basically go on all the time but seem important only sometimes, as the roving eye of my attention/ambition snags on them. I've been purposely battening down all my career freaking-out for years saying "wait for summer '04... wait for summer '04..." so all I can say about this is that it has to happen. I could try to keep more of it private if that's what LJ'ers would prefer.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-24 10:56 am (UTC)J and I have talked many times about similar topics and it seems that one major difference between our thought processes is that if he can't have it, he doesn't want it. Even if, from my perspective, he probably can have it, just maybe not immediately, maybe not without a fight (and yes, maybe, in the end, not at all). Like I asked, if he had a thousand dollars what would he do with it? He said he had no idea, and really struggled to come up with something, because he "didn't have $1000, so he doesn't think about things like that". I couldn't HELP thinking about what I'd do with some money growing up, couldn't help thinking about what life would be like if I lived somewhere else, couldn't help imagining what life would be like as an elite gymnast, etc.
Maybe it's our upbringing? If I didn't imagine a life different from the one I had, I don't think I'd HAVE a life different than the one I had...and *eeek* that would be bad.
Imagining something "better" is what has kept humans on an upward path. And there are always going to be the extremes on both sides...those hyper-driven and those not. And although the drive has brought us many good things, like medicine and a safer more leisurely life...it's also brought us bad things, like war and pollution. Are we better off without it? It's kind of a moot point, you can't turn it off.
J I hope I didn't misrepresent you - feel free to clarify of course :)
no subject
Date: 2004-05-24 11:01 am (UTC)I'd like to clarify that what I said was that losing MYSELF is enough to drive me away from it.
Sacrificing my body is ok with me. Sacrificing who I am, and the opportunity to grow myself outside of parenthood, is what I object to. It's you or kids.
Blue - Adventure - Education - Travel - Romance - Athleticism + Baby != Blue
From Flexy: I'd be an awful parent, and belief that my life and body would be
completely ruinedso different from what they are now that I would lose myself.Precisely. I don't know who I'd be, but I KNOW I'm not that poor woman who takes care of everyone else at the expense of herself.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-24 11:05 am (UTC)I think Mommy equates much more with "good-bye who you were without kids" than the other terms do. Maybe this is wrong, or maybe it doesn't have to be this way, but I've read too many articles titled "Working Mothers Still Do All The Housework" to not be a tad skeptical.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-24 11:36 am (UTC)If 99.9998% is maybe, then yeah, maybe. ;)
I really don't know where I'd have gotten any drive from if I'd had a happy childhood. I also know a lot of people who don't seem to have much, and I ask them if they had a happy childhood and they say "oh, it was straight from Norman Rockwell." It can't be directly causative in all cases, but there's quite a correlation.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-24 12:14 pm (UTC)A> I hated pregnancy and labor. Yes, I was terrified of them, much like everyone of the women here. To have something grow inside of you, your body change in odd ways...it was all utterly terrifying. My first baby was not planned. In fact, I was beginning to think I was infertile...three years with hubby, no pill. You get the picture.
B> When they were born, I did not have the instant lovey dovey strong bond to them. I am unfortunately not a very emotional person? Or maybe my definition of emotions are different. I thought, 'wow, they are so little'. I thought, 'I really need to take care of him because I'm the jerk who brought them into the world. It's not fair not to take responsibility for that.' Only after weeks did it become strong enough to be called love. Protectiveness yes...love no...so personally I was not hard-wired to love.
C> I am not the world's greatest mommy. I love the kids, but for some reason I have been on a short leash and I know it. I am tired and cranky. I am human.:P I admit the first year or so, you do give a lot to the babes. But, I can trade a year or so...now that they are hitting the twos, that they speak, that they run around. It is amazing to watch. Sacrifice? Yes. Though, of self...not so much. I don't become my mom. I didn't stop believing what I believed in. Redirected a bit, maybe. Gone? No.
no subject
Date: 2004-05-24 02:05 pm (UTC)Anyway, it's not for me and that's that. For the record though (and as you were probably picking up from the comments), I am an egg donor who has contact with the kid... my bio-daughter Birdie will be 3 in August... so it's not like I'm entirely anti-family, I've just had to find my own way to do these things. Birdie's pretty neat, my tummy's still flat and they paid me... the tradeoff is I don't get the mother/child bond. But I miss out on the expense, the time, the diapers and the emotional drain too. ;)