Drinking to the dead

[flexagon]

Well... I'm done now with Stiff: the Curious Lives of Human Cadavers by Mary Roach, and think it's worth another post since it's actually changed my decision about what I want done with my body after I die. Something about it... well, first, I never realized how useful a human cadaver is. There are injury studies that simply can't be undertaken in a productive way without them, and of course there's very little that compares to them for the teaching of anatomy students. Others are used to train dogs that are used to find murder victims, calibrate shock-test dummies to help car companies make safer cars, to help design non-lethal bullets, and to analyze what happened in plane crashes. Some rot under controlled conditions to study that process so that forensic experts can know more and more accurately how long someone has been dead. Countless others donate organs, saving the lives (or just the vision or whatever) of other people who can now use what they are not using. In Sweden, there's even a large movement afoot to start simply using human bodies for compost (there's a freeze-drying process involved), to allow a growing plant at least to benefit.

bluechromis, I should mention that while the first few chapters of the book are absolutely delightful (and insanely funny) and the last chapter gets back around to the same if you like environmentalism and the compost idea, there's some stuff in the middle that veers off into some animal experimentation you may find very hard to read about. It was important stuff, true... it was one of the first steps to recognizing that life is centered in the head and that brain death should be the legal definition of "death", which is useful in all kinds of ways. Still it was hard to read about, and not very human-cadaver-centric. It can be skipped without losing much of the book's message.

Maybe it was something about reading all these different uses all at once, but... a week ago, if I knew I was dying I would have said to just cremate me. But then, really... my body the object. I've put so much work into it for reasons that have mostly been selfish but aren't necessarily so. This could be good for someone else someday! Don't get me wrong, I'm going to use it any which way I want until I'm well and truly through with it--but say I died tomorrow and left my cadaver as it would be right now. It would be criminal to not use my hair for a wig for a cancer victim, silly to waste my heart (down in the 50s for beats per minute when resting) when someone is dying without a replacement. Same for my liver: I don't drink much, I bet it's in pretty boss shape. If I didn't die and leave a beating-heart cadaver, which is what you need for organ transplants, it would seem reasonable enough to help a medical student learn anatomy (which is how 80% of bodies "donated to science" end up) or to help with someone's experiment somewhere. Cadavers are treated with more respect today than ever before, and to be selfish for a moment, it's a lot less nasty to be dissected than to decay right off the bat. No, if I have to decay, the explicit "compost" option is sounding much more appealing.

I've never liked the idea of burial, because I don't want to make claim to a patch of land like that for no reason (plus the rotting thing rears its ugly head again). But I never thought before about the sheer waste of cremation. Am I weird to have not thought of these things before? What do you want done with your bodies when you die, and why?

I am embarrassed now that I was squicked out by organ donation when I was younger, when the truth is that I might do more good that way, dead, than I have so far to anyone while alive. Not that I'm done trying.

Comments

[webrat.livejournal.com]

I totally believe that cemetaries are nothing but a waste of space. I'd rather be cremated. I told my family that too. Cremate me and throw me somewhere interesting, that's all I asked.

There was an HBO special (damn, I need to lay off HBO) about death row prisoner donating his body to science. Scientist were trying to determine what makes a murderer a murderer and could it be detected early and corrected.

They had a machine slice up his body in like thin layers with laser and preserved between two sheets of glass (actually showed the layers on tv). The scientist measured/studied each layer one by one looking for *anything* that could help them determine if criminals had some sort of common flaw.

I saw that!!!

[jg26.livejournal.com]

It was really neat. Though I missed that the purpose was to determine 'to determine what makes a murderer a murderer'. I thought that it was just to get an extrememly detailed 'model' of the human body. It would seem that you'd need a lot more than 1 person to volunteer for that particular experiment in order for it to be successful. Wouldn't you need lots of people both murderers and controls to make any conclusions w/ credibility? N=1 is just bad statistics.

Re: I saw that!!!

[webrat.livejournal.com]

I'm sure that they had more. He was just one of them that was documented for science. From what I recall, they did state that they found that majority of the murderers they had sliced up had a larger frontal lobe or some silly thing like that. However, the scientist in the end recognized that this was not the be all end all solution to what drives a person to crime as there is outside (social) influence , etc.

Consider that added to the 'to-read' list

[jg26.livejournal.com]

Sounds like an interesting book.

I never thought before about the sheer waste of cremation. Am I weird to have not thought of these things before?
weird? no. I think that most people don't like to think of it at all. This book seems to give an unusual perspective on the usefulness of corpses. I think that many people may have difficulty honoring a dead loved one's requests. Religion certainly plays a part. People also like to go to grave sites... so they can 'visit' w/ the deceased.

What do you want done with your bodies when you die, and why?
I've always had an idea similar to the composting one for myself. I wanted to perhaps be buried (w/o embalming fluid or casket... just me in dirt) in a place where a tree could be planted over me. The tree would then be like my gravestone. I've liked this idea because loved ones who wanted to come visit could see a tree that was incorporating my molecules into itself. They could touch the bark, and be perhaps touching some of me. If it were planted in an old-growth forest, it may even stand for longer than a gravestone would... And I could haunt the fucker who cut it down. I'd also thought about the idea of having my body dumped into the middle of a shark feeding frenzy... yes this may be a bit violent (hence rough on grieving loved ones), but sharks are my favorite animals, so I wouldn't mind nourishing them.

Before reading your post, I hadn't really contemplated all the good a human corpse could do for humanity, though I am listed as an organ donor.

Re: Consider that added to the 'to-read' list

[flexagon]

Cool. It's a great book, one or two chapters in the middle notwithstanding.

I think that many people may have difficulty honoring a dead loved one's requests. Religion certainly plays a part.

Not surprising--religion seems to play a part in all kinds of fuckups and areas of stagnation. But, not to get too bitter on the religion topic... as for the grieving loved ones, yeah, about 50% of organ donors' families fail to respect their wishes, and refuse consent to let their organs be donated. Families of those who donate their body to science often don't know what happens to the bodies, and those who do don't tend to want details. I can understand that. I don't like it that the law gives that power to the surviving family members though... (The author, btw, disagrees with me there. She spends the very last chapter talking about this issue, and what she's going to have done with her own remains depends largely on what her husband will be comfortable with.)

I wanted to perhaps be buried (w/o embalming fluid or casket... just me in dirt) in a place where a tree could be planted over me.

If you really want to do that, be aware that you usually have to be buried in less than 24 hours or something for it to be legal. My mom always wanted to avoid being embalmed, and that was the law in Montana. It's probably a state law, so it's probably different here.

Anyway, yeah, I like the idea of the molecules going into the tree. The composting people talk about that. :) Eventual haunting of the fucker who cuts you down is just another fringe benefit!

Re: Consider that added to the 'to-read' list

[webrat.livejournal.com]

Eventual haunting of the fucker who cuts you down is just another fringe benefit!

Who writes this stuff?! ;)

just to play devil's advocate...

[jg26.livejournal.com]

...and what she's going to have done with her own remains depends largely on what her husband will be comfortable with
do you not think that this viewpoint is at least admirable? While, yes, I could do some good composting, or being a crash dummy, or whatever, my loved ones are of primary concern. Their emotions, even though illogical and, in the end, non-productive, are still of primary importance.

Re: just to play devil's advocate...

[flexagon]

Sure, it's admirable enough. *shrug* But in the case of, say, a voluntary organ donor, I don't think it should be legally permissible for a grieving family member to override that person's wishes. One organ donor can save several lives--that should have higher value than the discomfort of the griever, in my opinion. Of course, this is one good reason to think and talk about these things--so you and your loved ones can decide on something.

To wander off to a side topic: I was discussing with my coworkers a couple of weeks ago (yes, pre-book!) about how there'd be a lot more organ donors if it was simply the legal default to be one and it took some slight amount of effort to get off the list... precisely because most people don't like to think about it at all. Without reducing freedom of choice, this could make a lot more organs available. Hmmmm... that'd make a good Mass ballot question...

Re: just to play devil's advocate...

[jg26.livejournal.com]

Grieving family members should NOT override the persons dying wishes... I was just saying it was admirable to consider those you leave behind. Thus, it should be discussed and decided upon (however unpleasant that may be) ahead of time. Thus, the griever shouldn't then back out of the agreed upon arrangement out of respect, just because they find it difficult to deal w/ once plunged into grief.

I like the idea of checking the box if you DON'T want to be an organ donor. I don't see why not... and don't see how anyone could object to that logic... other than the religious right, but they object to everything worthwhile for no good reason.

Veering sort of off topic

[flexagon]

Hmmm. The more I think about this the more I think HLM's body should be used in some violent way... explosive testing, say, or doing the crash-test dummy studies. That way, during the acceptance stage of my grief I could think of the good he was doing, and be glad he was such a generous bug. And during the anger stage of my grief I'd think he deserved to be slammed into a windshield for up and leaving me like that. >:)

(I could die first, of course, but statistics say it's not likely. Sigh.)

[webfaery.livejournal.com]

When I was about 10 or 11 years old my great grandmother died. She was in her 80's and her eyes went to a nineteen year old woman who had been blind for most of her life. The thought that someone could see thanks to my gran pretty much blew me away. I've been wholeheartedly in support of organ donation ever since. I've been registered as an organ donor since I turned 18. I've always said that if any of my body can be used for anything after I'm finished with - go for it. I won't need it, I'll be busy looking for a new one to inhabit.

[flexagon]

Wow, what an amazing thing to know about. :) I don't personally know anyone who's donated an organ or had one given to them. That's a wonderful act of generosity for a child to witness.

As I said, I felt squeamish about the whole thing when younger--not wanting people to "cut into me." I think it's only recently sunk into my head that I really won't be there anymore. I'm slow, I guess.

[bluechromis.livejournal.com]

I'm currently an organ donor, but I totally understand why you'd be squeamish about it when you were younger. I love the idea of composting, or J's idea of planting a tree over me, assuming I can't actually help by donating organs. I'm not sure about donating it for dissection. I have too many body issues, and I'm sure a little thing like dying isn't going to fix them :P