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flexagonI got pretty discouraged after handstand class today because, honestly, I am going through just huge paradigm shifts about how handstands work and nothing feels the same anymore. Not only did I totally break my jump-up, it's making me feel like I've been wasting my time until this year.
If I wasn't learning this then what the hell was I doing? Preparing my tissues for the load, I guess.
INSIGHT ONE -- what teachers meant, all along, by "open shoulders".
Summary: when teachers talk about "the shoulder angle" they also have been including a lot of thoracic spine positioning in that. They're really discussing the whole emergent angle from approximately the elbow to the... bra strap or lower thoracic. This is confusing because I, and I think many other students, think of the glenohumeral joint when we hear "shoulder angle" -- and, ahem, I think it's fair since that is also often "the shoulder joint". Edited for clarity: the glenohumeral joint must be "open" to create "open shoulders" -- it's necessary but it's not sufficient.
Detail: If the thoracic is aligned with the arm bones, teachers are likely to say it's a straight handstand with proper shoulder alignment. The cervical spine doesn't matter for this though (the head can be out, or tucked through, or whatevs) and for the sake of this, the lumbar doesn't matter either.
Detail: This explains why several people have talked about pulling in the ribs, etc, as being part of "opening the shoulders". Because moving the thoracic does affect the overall emergent angle between upper torso and upper arms.
Emotion: I wish that various teachers had been more precise all along. But I also recognize that it isn't their job to be precise, it's their job to give cues that result in the right positioning.
INSIGHT TWO -- the floating spine
This relates to open-chain movement. Where one part of the body is fixed and another part moves.
It's very common to say that the scapula "floats" on the back. The connection between scapula and ribs/spine is non-skeletal; it's all muscle and connective tissue, allowing for a huge range of motion. Again, there's no skeletal connection to the spine on the back. (The only skeletal connection is in the tiny little clavicle joint in front, which doesn't transmit much force at all). This looseness is why scapulae can protract/retract, and also raise/lower, as much as they do. As I said to a friend earlier, I'm not trying to diss all the muscles. But they squishy as hell compared to bone and cartilage.
So now, think about all that in a handstand. The hands, arm bones AND SCAPULAE are fixed to the floor by gravity and connected in firm, non-stretchy ways by bones and joints. If the arms are straight, none of that stuff is moving much. It's all pretty fixed in place.
Which means ... with all the motion that remains possible between the scapulae and the back of the spine, but the scaps actually pretty fixed... IT'S THE SPINE THAT'S FLOATING and controlled by the scap muscles.
From that fixed, bony structure on up, the handstand (including whether the shoulder area is considered "closed") can be discussed, cued and thought of entirely in terms of spine positioning.
This opens up a whole new set of cues and way of thinking. Examples:
INSIGHT THREE?
I think Spring gave me another piece this morning, which is that protraction (which brings the spine forward, in handstand) also makes the spine more free to move independently. (This is because the ribcage is pretty narrow at the top, and so the scaps can get out of the way more than intuition might suggest).
I'm still thinking through this. The scaps can't get entirely clear of the ribcage by moving in the head direction, can they? It doesn't look like it in this headstand diagram, or this one of just the bones (edited to fix this link). And also, I've never heard of anyone having the sort of freaky dislocation that would be possible if it were so. But by wrapping around (protracting) and also lifting up (elevating), I think they can get close.
So now some of this is very actionable and has given me a whole new set of cues to try, but everything feels unfamiliar. Stuff I slacked on before suddenly feels intensely critical, and I have no idea if I can put these new understandings together into a functioning body movement. Like: what the hell have I been doing all this time? I've never in my life, until today, focused on trying to keep my scapulae wide during a jump-up! But when I do, the freedom is uncontrollable. I've fixed something critical in my understanding and completely destroyed my intuition.
Sigh.
If I wasn't learning this then what the hell was I doing? Preparing my tissues for the load, I guess.
INSIGHT ONE -- what teachers meant, all along, by "open shoulders".
Summary: when teachers talk about "the shoulder angle" they also have been including a lot of thoracic spine positioning in that. They're really discussing the whole emergent angle from approximately the elbow to the... bra strap or lower thoracic. This is confusing because I, and I think many other students, think of the glenohumeral joint when we hear "shoulder angle" -- and, ahem, I think it's fair since that is also often "the shoulder joint". Edited for clarity: the glenohumeral joint must be "open" to create "open shoulders" -- it's necessary but it's not sufficient.
Detail: If the thoracic is aligned with the arm bones, teachers are likely to say it's a straight handstand with proper shoulder alignment. The cervical spine doesn't matter for this though (the head can be out, or tucked through, or whatevs) and for the sake of this, the lumbar doesn't matter either.
Detail: This explains why several people have talked about pulling in the ribs, etc, as being part of "opening the shoulders". Because moving the thoracic does affect the overall emergent angle between upper torso and upper arms.
Emotion: I wish that various teachers had been more precise all along. But I also recognize that it isn't their job to be precise, it's their job to give cues that result in the right positioning.
INSIGHT TWO -- the floating spine
This relates to open-chain movement. Where one part of the body is fixed and another part moves.
It's very common to say that the scapula "floats" on the back. The connection between scapula and ribs/spine is non-skeletal; it's all muscle and connective tissue, allowing for a huge range of motion. Again, there's no skeletal connection to the spine on the back. (The only skeletal connection is in the tiny little clavicle joint in front, which doesn't transmit much force at all). This looseness is why scapulae can protract/retract, and also raise/lower, as much as they do. As I said to a friend earlier, I'm not trying to diss all the muscles. But they squishy as hell compared to bone and cartilage.
So now, think about all that in a handstand. The hands, arm bones AND SCAPULAE are fixed to the floor by gravity and connected in firm, non-stretchy ways by bones and joints. If the arms are straight, none of that stuff is moving much. It's all pretty fixed in place.
Which means ... with all the motion that remains possible between the scapulae and the back of the spine, but the scaps actually pretty fixed... IT'S THE SPINE THAT'S FLOATING and controlled by the scap muscles.
From that fixed, bony structure on up, the handstand (including whether the shoulder area is considered "closed") can be discussed, cued and thought of entirely in terms of spine positioning.
This opens up a whole new set of cues and way of thinking. Examples:
- Scapular protraction is really bringing the spine forward.
- Shrugging is really raising the spine higher.
- Closing the shoulder joint is rotating the spine.
INSIGHT THREE?
I think Spring gave me another piece this morning, which is that protraction (which brings the spine forward, in handstand) also makes the spine more free to move independently. (This is because the ribcage is pretty narrow at the top, and so the scaps can get out of the way more than intuition might suggest).
I'm still thinking through this. The scaps can't get entirely clear of the ribcage by moving in the head direction, can they? It doesn't look like it in this headstand diagram, or this one of just the bones (edited to fix this link). And also, I've never heard of anyone having the sort of freaky dislocation that would be possible if it were so. But by wrapping around (protracting) and also lifting up (elevating), I think they can get close.
So now some of this is very actionable and has given me a whole new set of cues to try, but everything feels unfamiliar. Stuff I slacked on before suddenly feels intensely critical, and I have no idea if I can put these new understandings together into a functioning body movement. Like: what the hell have I been doing all this time? I've never in my life, until today, focused on trying to keep my scapulae wide during a jump-up! But when I do, the freedom is uncontrollable. I've fixed something critical in my understanding and completely destroyed my intuition.
Sigh.
obviously i love all this. random thoughts in less order than your own post:
Date: 2025-10-24 01:46 am (UTC)super interesting thinking about the glenohumeral joint in the context of this post since that joint is the interface between the arm and the scapula, and SOME of "shoulder angle" in a handstand is indeed where the scapulae are placed. i'd actually be super curious to see how much variation in perceived shoulder angle is possible given the same shoulder-blade placement!
i have always found the interplay between "useful cue" and "accurate cue" fascinating and maddening, ever since i was a teen ballet student. i definitely give useful cues but i much prefer to receive accurate ones.
one of my friends equated open shoulders to "getting the ribs as far from the elbows as possible" which is more similar to your new understanding but not a common cue.
do you remember my handstand alignment diagrams from like 15 years ago with lots of arrows and circles? it does sort of illustrate the idea that opening the shoulder is rotating the rib cage.
personally i don't have an awareness of protracting the shoulders allowing my spine to be freer to move independently. but maybe that's happening below my level of awareness. i have trained presses to have a more rounded thoracic spine, with my spine as far forward as possible, thinking of my thoracic SPINE as being the farthest forward thing in the starting position, versus head or shoulders or shoulderblades... but i'm not strong in that position. i'm not sure if people who do presses that way (which is aesthetically desirable in circus) have bodies that function differently from mine. well, obviously, they do! i'm not sure WHY or HOW their bodies are able to be strong there.
Re: obviously i love all this. random thoughts in less order than your own post:
Date: 2025-10-24 10:19 pm (UTC)And thank you also for re-sending your old diagrams by email, which I did in fact remember. You've got a clue to my insight #1 right in there, in the ROTATE section.... "rib cage to pull in front ribs & open shoulders", you said, emphasis mine. I just didn't understand. I guess I always thought that pulling in the ribs made it easier to open the gleno-humeral joint, or something....... but never for a moment realized that pulling in the ribs contributes directly to "opening the emergent shoulder-area angle", which I now think 99% of teachers are usually talking about.
This makes me really miserable in the "why did nobody ever tell me" kind of way, except that maybe people did try to tell me and I always had an overly precise concept of "shoulder". That thought makes me miserable in the "I'm a total goddamn idiot" way, although I don't think I'm the only student to be confused by the "open shoulder" terminology. Either way I can't believe I just figured this out NOW. And I have not at all figured out how to be happy about it, even though knowledge is good and maybe this is opening a new path forward.
one of my friends equated open shoulders to "getting the ribs as far from the elbows as possible"... yes yes yes!!! How did your friend figure that out, I wonder?
personally i don't have an awareness of protracting the shoulders allowing my spine to be freer to move independently. but maybe that's happening below my level of awareness.
Interesting! I wonder what you would experience if you consciously try not to protract (or try to retract a little, even) and see if that restricts your spinal movement. Warning: might be a miserable experience if you're used to the other position.
i have trained presses to have a more rounded thoracic spine, with my spine as far forward as possible, thinking of my thoracic SPINE as being the farthest forward thing in the starting position, versus head or shoulders or shoulderblades... but i'm not strong in that position.
Yeah. I see super clearly how protraction moves the t-spine forward (and so does rounding it). Along with that, Tiny Coach also teaches head forward, because heads are heavy and therefore useful to have on the forward side. But she also teaches protraction, and connection from triceps through to the scaps during the push.
She gave me the weirdest damn spot I have ever had, last Monday... she pressed down on the back of my head with one hand -- and that's all she did -- while I pressed into a handstand (and pressed my head up against her hand). It took me three tries to get the feel of that, but amazingly it worked, it did help me press.
Who is muscular, flexible, resilient, strong-wristed and now INCREDIBLY SULKY? It's me. This student. Ugggggh.
Re: obviously i love all this. random thoughts in less order than your own post:
Date: 2025-10-25 03:34 am (UTC)i nabbed this photo from some PT website years and years ago because i feel like it shows how as shoulder angle opens, ribs and lower back rise.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4DbrfddcQhzhXkX7A
i guess i'm confused what the effect was of your previous misunderstanding and what you'll do differently now. it's true that the spine between the shoulder joint and the waist is flexible [and placement of scapulae on rib cage is variable], but to my mind, not so flexible that GH angle could reasonably be separated from what you're calling emergent shoulder-area angle.
i am familiar with that head spot - i don't love it but it's definitely nice to try lots of different things!
Re: obviously i love all this. random thoughts in less order than your own post:
Date: 2025-10-25 01:50 pm (UTC)Well -- because of insight #1, next time someone tells me to open my shoulders, I'm gonna suck in my ribs "instead". And I'll understand why, instead of wasting time being confused.
Because of insight #3, I'm about to start actually focusing on protraction when I do various drills that were probably all trying to train protraction but I didn't get it. That includes, especially, tuck holds with rocking on canes and parallettes. Which I doubt I can even do properly right now, so I'll be back to slower drills using a block and/or wall.
I will also try to retain protraction while jumping, despite the very very different feeling from my usual, because it does make inversion easier.
it's true that the spine between the shoulder joint and the waist is flexible [and placement of scapulae on rib cage is variable], but to my mind, not so flexible that GH angle could reasonably be separated from what you're calling emergent shoulder-area angle.
Maybe if you compare a straight handstand to a Mexican handstand, it will make a little sense? I think the GH angle is a little more open in Mexican, but that the biggest difference is the thoracic arching instead of being rounded. Some people even call it a "hollowback" handstand, apparently calling out the difference in back (spine) position.
Re: obviously i love all this. random thoughts in less order than your own post:
Date: 2025-10-25 07:03 pm (UTC)mexi with GH joint less than 180:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRghLsD4zS77fVzo86f5B9_LWeAb_tgKxz9XQ&s
mexi with GH joint more than 180:
https://yanvayoga.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/mexican-handstand.jpg
buuuuut, in a straight handstand, i'm still struggling to picture how the GH angle could be separated from the elbow-to-rib angle! regardless, i'm glad you understand now that pulling your ribs in effectively opens your shoulders and that for the purposes of a straight handstand the entire upper torso is considered a unit whose fulcrum is the GH joint. even if there are further nuances related to spine shape and shoulder blade position, i don't think they make much difference when aiming for that specific straight-line shape, nor when thinking about the pathway up into a press or jump-up.
interestingly i remember that tiny coach's press had (like 10 years ago, so now who knows) a particular shoulder blade and t-spine positioning that wasn't aligned with the common aesthetic or functional ideal but that was still perfectly effective. i'm curious how this plays into what you're learning from this person, or not!
Re: obviously i love all this. random thoughts in less order than your own post:
Date: 2025-10-25 07:16 pm (UTC)Re: obviously i love all this. random thoughts in less order than your own post:
Date: 2025-10-25 09:35 pm (UTC)I guess in a good straight handstand it can't be separated. A good straight handstand requires proper positioning of both the GH joint and the T-spine. But the T-spine, along with protraction, can make the difference between a good / "actually straight" handstand and the mildly banana shape of the struggling student who is doing a "worse" straight handstand. (Struggling student: "but my shoulder joint feels like it's at maximum already!") Surely you have seen this many times?
for the purposes of a straight handstand the entire upper torso is considered a unit whose fulcrum is the GH joint
I think I now believe the true fulcrum is the scaps, connected as they are to both the arms (GH joint) and the spine (through lots of muscle and softer connective tissue). Effort has to be exerted on "both sides" of that in order to straighten the "entire upper torso" area into a 180 degree "emergent shoulder angle". This really isn't a contradiction since the GH joint is at one corner of, yeah, the scap.
My best guess is that you're doing protraction by default, and that your t-spine is better behaved than mine also. Though I'd still love for you to try a jump with retraction and see how that goes!
Re: obviously i love all this. random thoughts in less order than your own post:
Date: 2025-10-25 03:10 pm (UTC)Sorry yes, I did mean this. :)